Discussing the Lit Blitz: R. de la Lanza's "Of Sheep and Shepherds"

Discussing the Lit Blitz, previous finalist Annaliese Lemmon talks with the finalists from our most recent contest about their work.

​This interview has been edited for clarity.

Annaliese Lemmon: Welcome everyone, to the Mormon Lit Lab podcast. I'm Annaliese Lemmon, your host for this series where we discuss the 15th annual Mormon Lit Blitz. Today, I'm joined by R. de la Lanza, author of “De Ovejas y Pastores,” or in English, “Of Sheep and Shepherds.” Welcome, Rafael

R. de la Lanza: Thank you, Annaliese. Thank you. It's an honor to be here

Annaliese Lemmon: Mm-hmm. And could you introduce yourself and explain what your experience is with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

R. de la Lanza: Yes, thank you. Although I wasn't born in the church, my grandmother was baptized in her 40s and then left the church. But when she died, my mom started thinking about returning to the church. So, I was born during her life without going to church, and me and my brother began to learn about the church. We began to learn the gospel.

So I was baptized when I was 10 in 1987 and since that day, I have been a member of the church without stopping. I'm an active member without stopping.

Annaliese Lemmon: Very nice. And I enjoyed your poem, and you know, it's very short but sweet and just really hits with precision. Did you always imagine it this short, or did you have to cut it down while you were editing?

R. de la Lanza: Poetry, I discovered that poetry has a power. In order to release its power, you need to be very, like a punch thing.

Annaliese Lemmon: Mm-hmm

R. de la Lanza: Maybe you can beat your enemy with just one punch, like David with Goliath, and maybe you will need to fight a long fight, and that's poetry. You need to hit the soul of the people who read, and most important is the people who listens to the voice within, that comes from your writing. If it's a poem, poetry is always an audible thing. So when I wrote “De ovejas y pastores,” I really had too many things in mind, so I decided that I needed to be very specific and very clear in just one punch do all the work, communicate everything. I don't know if I could get to it, but I guess there's something about it. So James and you and everyone who voted for it, felt somehow and in some way what I intended to, and, well, that's the mechanics of this specific piece.

Annaliese Lemmon: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'm not very practiced in poetry, so I love just hearing how poets approach their pieces different from me who does more of a prose approach. Because poetry's very much about distilling to the very essence of the message.

R. de la Lanza: Neither I. This is like, I am starting to do some poetry, but this is where I am now.

Annaliese Lemmon: Well, this was a great introduction to your poetry,  whatever you write in the future. So getting into the imagery of the flocks that don't follow the Good Shepherd, I found that really intriguing. And what kind of liberty do you see these sheep having? Like, freedom from shepherds, from pens, from knowledge, or would it be something less metaphorical?

R. de la Lanza: Like I said before, I had too many things in my mind about it. When it comes to literature, I always try to be very careful to not, like, melt, mixing things, about the faith and my convictions and this attitude of trying to teach or to preach, my brothers or my sisters or other people, non-LDS people. I always try not to do a literature that is teaching or making a sermon, because that's the church thing. That's something about you and God and your leaders. And I'm always trying to do the literary thing in another room, but I know that this is my life and literature is also about your life.

Annaliese Lemmon: Mm-hmm

R. de la Lanza: So sometimes those different like aspects of my life are in the same room. My faith and living my life, living the gospel appears in the literature I make, I write. But I don't know if it is seen in the poem, but sometimes I see that we are not trying to follow Jesus, but are trying to lead another persons. I recently heard or learned about this pastor of, a leader of another church that said “There’s a lot of people trying to be leaders, but there's almost no one trying to follow Jesus."

Annaliese Lemmon: Hmm

R. de la Lanza: So, we're building us as leaders, but not as followers of what we are trying to look like, to be like, to act like.

Annaliese Lemmon: Mm-hmm

R. de la Lanza: So I guess that's what the Lord said when in Doctrine and Covenants we read that there are many who are called, but not all are chosen.

Annaliese Lemmon: But few are chosen, yes

R. de la Lanza: And the reason is that they want to lead. They don't want to follow, in a few words. And in another verse, it says that we have discovered that when a man is given some portion of power, in the same moment starts, in my words, trying to lead people, not to follow Jesus and carry people with their example, with example of Jesus and following, but to guide them as they want to do with their own wisdom, with their own convictions, with their own desires and wantings and hurts and everything and pains. But that’s not what we are supposed to do. We are supposed to follow Jesus and guide our flocks, our sheep, well, the Lord's sheep to Him, not to our idea of Him. So sometimes we make mistakes and those mistakes sometimes are harmful less, but sometimes are harmful, harmful. Sometimes we make other people suffer. Sometimes we make other people cry. And in those specific times, you see I'm preaching now, in those specific times we are being like shepherds, but we forget that we are sheep and we are to listen to the voice of the Lord and follow His voice because He knows the plan and all those things. This is why I wrote it into poetry, but not into a lesson, and not into a talk, because I think that that piece can be a little more powerful and puts me in no place. So I am just the messenger

Annaliese Lemmon: Yeah.

R. de la Lanza: I know this feels a little bit pathetic, but this is the reason of the existence of that piece.

Annaliese Lemmon: Okay. Yeah, I think you've got some great points in there, and it's not just in the gospel but in everyday life. Like, you get some knowledge and then you think, "Oh, everyone needs to follow this," but then you start learning all the things that you don't know, and it's like, "Oh, wait. Maybe I'm not as strong in this as I thought I was."

And, just coming also back to the fact that you were differentiating between preaching church lessons and poetry, like one nice thing is that with poetry, people can perhaps see your message that you have, but they may also take a different message from a poet, from a poem, something that means something to them.

So I feel like that's great and one of the benefits for a contest like this.

R. de la Lanza: I agree. Thanks.

Annaliese Lemmon: All right. Uh-huh. And last year, Jesus told us about the writing group that you'd established for, LDS writers. And what advice would you like to give to people who would like to establish a writing group of their own?

R. de la Lanza: Jesus Baldemar, right?

Annaliese Lemmon: Mhm

R. de la Lanza: Jesus Baldemar wrote a little fiction story about this little girl that goes into the Kirtland Temple without being seen and she sees some special things.

Annaliese Lemmon: Yes, the story was called “Hidden.”

R. de la Lanza: Yes, yes. Well, I don't know. Maybe you are the ones who are to give advising and tips to be there always for another people that wants to start writing poetry or tales or stories, literature. Because I can see that you are so, like, so constant, so, I don't know how to say it. So, maybe if I used this word, enduring.

Annaliese Lemmon: Hmm

R. de la Lanza: Enduring in nurturing all the community. But this is exactly one application of the poem because sometimes I need to remind myself as a writer, as a learning writer, or as a writer who is not perfect yet. So I always, need to remind myself as one who needs the help of someone that is like me now, and those are you, James, and other people. So in recent days, I listened to this podcast. James was interviewed and he said, "You need to be kind."

Annaliese Lemmon: Hmm

R. de la Lanza: That's one thing that almost every literary workshop needs, to have that.

Annaliese Lemmon: Mm-hmm

R. de la Lanza: There's a lot of workshops that are not kind, that are not a kind ambiance, a kind room, and it's hostile. Sometimes it's like, criticizing or a personal thing or da, da, da. But if you are running a group to teach them or to help them, get some goals about learning something like art or literature or skills like that you need to be very patient, and you need to be very kind, and you need to be professional, but you need to be kind and inspiring.

Annaliese Lemmon: Mm-hmm

R. de la Lanza: That'll be my opinion in that part. The other part is, like, don't give up. Insist, persist. Be constant.

Annaliese Lemmon: Mhm. Yeah, I've been in a few writing groups where they require the kindness in there. It's like you start with the things you like, and also end with something that you like, so that way the person who's being critiqued doesn't feel like their work is just worthless. There's always something good you can find about a story or poem or whatever.

R. de la Lanza: Yes. You have to have present the goals of the group, because if the goals are looking for a more professional thing than another group, if this is like a group that is doing friend things and be helpful to feel comfortable and Well, that's some kind of kindness, but if you are helping the people in another group to get more professional skills or more serious skills, there will be things that you will need, or they will need to get from you in a serious way, but that doesn't mean you have to forget about being kind.

Annaliese Lemmon: Mm-hmm.

R. de la Lanza: You can be kind, and you can be serious, and a good teacher telling them what needs to be said, but still to make them comfortable with the idea of starting again, working on the same thing.

Because sometimes, the participants are, "Oh, this is not okay? Okay. This goes to the trash, and I'm gonna start another one." No, no, no. No. This is great, but we need to work on it.

Annaliese Lemmon: Mm-hmm

R. de la Lanza: And we will come back over and over again until this one will be strong enough to be presented. But still you need to be very, very, yes, kind, and think that you are, helping another one to build the artist within to come out and show to the world his, or her, world.

Annaliese Lemmon: Hmm. Very true. And one question I like to ask everybody is, what is a piece of media, any format, any genre, that you would recommend for our audience?

R. de la Lanza: Media like, multimedia or it can it be books?

Annaliese Lemmon: Yeah, books, or shows, or a game, like anything.

R. de la Lanza: Okay. This time, it'll be about books.

Annaliese Lemmon: Okay.

R. de la Lanza: So, I'm going to show you two of the same kind that I think everyone needs to know and take a look into it, although this may be rare. Do you know what these are?

Annaliese Lemmon: Let's see. I see two red books. Okay, let me bring the camera bigger. So the bigger one, Citas del Presidente Mao Tsetung, and Cinco Artículos del Presidente Mao Tsetung. So it's, books about President Mao in China?

R. de la Lanza: Yes, these are from the Cultural Revolution of the China thing back in, I don't know, well, '48, or '50. But now these are like just some historical pieces. But this is something like, first of all, I am sure, I am convinced that the best format for a book to be carried with you is this. I've seen little editions of The Book of Mormon like this, but here in Mexico, it's hard to find. So this is the format. I love this because of the format, but I love this because of the work it did.

Annaliese Lemmon: I think in English we call it pocket size. Mm-hmm

R. de la Lanza: Yes, but here in Mexico these are called pocket size. [holds up trade paperback] I don't know why.

Annaliese Lemmon: Oh, really? Huh

R. de la Lanza: Because this is not hard. So if you go to a bookstore and ask for a pocket book they will give you this.

Annaliese Lemmon: Hmm

R. de la Lanza: So this is like mini. [holds up Citas del Presidente Mao Tsetung]

Annaliese Lemmon: Okay

R. de la Lanza: This is a real pocket size. You can take it in your jacket or in your pant. But the mission is like having little pieces of discourses of the mouths to the... This is hardly an effort that is done in a way that is not so,  indoctrinating.

Annaliese Lemmon: Hmm

R. de la Lanza: I make this like little joking that I dream myself going with my wife or going with a companion and knock on to the door of someone, and when the door is open, telling them, “Hello, good day. I am Rafael, and this is my companion. Do you have a little minutes to talk about?" And mention a literary work. El Quijote, the Dante's Comedy. Talking about literature, literary works, great literary works. Because sometimes we need to help people to understand what we do when we are talking about literary work and our myths or legends or The Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter or...There are many things that are bestsellers, but not all that deserves attention is best-selling. So there is where efforts like this, not communism, but the way they push to get to the people. And in talking about what we are doing, this is more like, commercial. But I want to show you this. It comes from a participant of the workshop.

Annaliese Lemmon: Okay.

R. de la Lanza: El Fulgor Anterior is a collection of short stories about some aspects of the life in the north part of Mexico, specifically in Sonora.

So Arizona, the desert, the life in the desert. There is one short story about,  there is this Costco, and people trying to be always at the store and doing everything of their lives in the store and not going to their houses because they love the store. They love the Costco. So they start living there until it becomes a little state, a little country, and they establish it. The name is the Democratic Republic of the Costco. So, and what happens there is the constitution and the life of, like, a state city, built on and around the mall. The Costco itself.

Annaliese Lemmon: Mm-hmm

R. de la Lanza: That's like surrealistic or like fun thing. But Eduardo is a great writer, and also he wrote a little piece of poetry from which comes the title.

Annaliese Lemmon: Okay

R. de la Lanza: The poetry is this. So can I, like read it briefly?

Annaliese Lemmon: Sure.

R. de la Lanza: It's in Spanish. I hope you will... it's about losing. It's about, the feeling that comes from the...

Annaliese Lemmon: From loss or something?

R. de la Lanza: From loss. Losing people and losing your youth and losing the times, losing ... It says, "Antes de que partieras ya moraban en mí amebas oscuras enquistadas en un rincón, / Germinando, Dormitando, Esperando el momento ideal. / Medraron cuando te fuiste, Voraces, Desenfrenadas. / Engulleron la sal de mi mundo. / Casi me devoran. / El fulgor anterior se nubló. / mi fuego ahora titila. / Brasas tímidas extinguiéndose. / Lumbre agonizante. / Cenizas." Well, it is there. I will not try to translate it directly because you can see my English is not very good.

Annaliese Lemmon: And translating poetry itself is hard even if you are fluent.

R. de la Lanza: Yeah.

Annaliese Lemmon: All right. Thank you for those. And do you have any other projects or places to find you online that you'd like to tell us about?

R. de la Lanza: Well, my social media is R. de la Lanza, but you will not find there things like me, like teaching literature. I have this TikTok and Instagram channel that is Formación Literaria. Maybe I can write it and send it into mail so you can know...

Annaliese Lemmon: Yes, and I can write it in the liner notes if anyone's interested in following that

R. de la Lanza: Yeah, thank you. Formación Literaria, that's where I share some tips. We have this Patreon site of the workshop. So if you or other people want to support the project, we are helping other people to become a writer in a serious way. And if you are a member of the church, it will be a more pleasant thing because we are trying to build a community that is made of writers that are, maybe they don't study like Spanish literature or English literature, but they're not literature people in an academic way. But there is talent. So it's just about a thing that they themselves know it, and start working on their works, on their projects. So we tell other people like you, like the people of other magazines or the people of all other places here that can publish or show their work.

That's my mission. And I'm very, very, thankful with you all that know about this and support in a very, in many ways with your words, with your moral support, with the tip, when you tell me about the cause, when you tell me about something that you found, being there, just being there. I’m very thankful for that

Annaliese Lemmon: Yeah, you're welcome. And there's quite a history of LDS writers supporting each other, especially in science fiction and fantasy, and I'm excited to see that expand into Mexico and other places as well.

R. de la Lanza: Yes. And we know that we will find our voice, we will find our voices, our own voices being Latin American, being Mexican or from other countries, and LDS being, either we write about our faith or else we write not about our faith but become a serious writer about anything. But being, living our faith and still being an LDS people, being a Mormon people.

Annaliese Lemmon: Yeah. Thank you. And is there anything else you'd like to add?

R. de la Lanza: No, I guess not. I speak too much. I tell a little few, but thank you for your patience, and thank you for your support

Annaliese Lemmon: Yeah. Thank you for joining us, and excited to see more come from you and the writers that you support

R. de la Lanza: Yes. Well, I'm forgetting something important. That was the first thing. We are in- the call is open. It's two contest. It's a novel contest and a poetry contest in Spanish literature, Spanish LDS literature. I'm giving you the links, so if you can help us spread the word. It's specifically for works written originally in Spanish.

Annaliese Lemmon: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I will put that in the liner notes, and share it with others as well.

R. de la Lanza: Yeah, sorry. It's... I'm nervous.

Annaliese Lemmon: All right. Well, thank you so much for joining me, and we'll see you again

R. de la Lanza: Thank you, Annaliese. Thank you

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